I'm still poking around for info on winders, and ran across the Gomberg Kites page on kite line. Good stuff! (Egads, I fly small kites... Sheesh!)
One bit of info on there caught my eye. I saw this same thing mentioned earlier in another thread here, but I figured I'd toss it out in its own thread:
How do you attach your kite line to your kite?
On my stunt kites I use a lark's head knot on the lines that attach to the bridle lines, which have a figure-eight stopper knot at the end of them. The lark's head slides down the bridle lines until it hits the stopper knot, and then it holds nice 'n hard. Line tension keeps it together.
On my Flowforms I've been using a snap swivel between the kite line (which is connected to the swivel with a lark's head) and the bridle ring. I got #350 snap swivels from Kitebuilder.
On Christian's site I saw he doesn't care for snap swivels because they tend to have much lower failure points than what the label says. (Which is one reason why my snap swivels have a higher rating than my line. I don't want them to be the failure point!) Christian's site then goes on to describe his line attachment device.
So what does everyone do to attach their kite to their line?
I've used snap swivels for 27 years, from 30 lb to 300 lb, and don't recall a case of swivel failure, but I know many prefer the larks-head method you describe. With a Flow Form, you just drop the larks' head over the ring.
Woops -- wait a minute -- I had the wire on one 200 lb coastlock swivel distort with a Flow Form 30, but it didn't break. Now I use a 300 lb coastlock on the FF30.
We like a ring on the bridal, attached with a larks head. A good strong snap swivel on the line for quick attachment. I've yet to have a failure with a good snap swivel. It sounds like what you are doing is just fine. I've heard of snap swivels letting go, but all of mine have been sound. If you want to reduce a possible risk in hardware, leave the snap swivel off and just tie onto the bridal. I like a little convenience, so paying attention to the hardware quality seems to work.
Where there is a ring on the kite and a loop on my line, I'll use a larkshead. in other cases, I use a knot favoured by Peter Lynn I think. It is basically a simple overhand knot, with the end passed through the loop once more. Pull tight and it holds a treat, but is also quite easy to untie. I always tie a stop knot in my kite line so that if the knot securing the kite does slip at all, the stop knot will not pull through (too many nots!)
My grandfather said he would trust his life to a bowline knot. The Federal Aviation Administration recommends the bowline knot for tying down light aircraft. I have used it so far and the line has broken in the middle before the knot. Any thoughts?
Well, a knot is only as strong as the line it's tied in. If I tie a bowline in 50# line and try to hang from it, it won't hold me =)
In rope, a bowline can be 80% efficient -- so if I tie it in 100# line, it will break on average at 80#. However, if I happened to tie it around a weak spot in the line, the knot could break at a lower strength.
The minimum (industrial) rating is to use a line 7x stronger than what you need. So if I need 7# of pull, I can use a 50# line, tie a bowline in it (which would break at 40#) and I still have 33# of "reserve" strength in the line.
That said, I've been using bowlines to tie my snap swivels to my 300# dacron for about a year with no troubles.
Lols here i was as a newbie about to ask how you guys get around the awful twists i am getting in my kite line and here is a thread saying about the swivels you use lols thanks again for being such a world of info :) Allan
People are mentioning that they use a larkshead to attach to the kite bridle, this is also the method that I use, as I find it almost easier than a swivel clip but I was wondering if people are using a specific knot to create the loop that you use to form the larkshead, a bowline or something else?
A bowline can work loose unless you do something with the "short end". Better I think is to fold 10 inches of the line back to itself, tie 2 single overhand knots in the loop, side by side, then tie an overhand knot or two in the working or "short" end, next to the first 2.
Best is to sleeve the line before tieing a knot. And if you have a sewing machine by hand: fold the line back about 3 inches and sew the double part together to form the loop. By sewing you get a very clean loop which minimizes the risk that bridle lines get tangled behind the knot. If you first put in a figure 8 knot about 3 inches from the end, then fold it double and then sew the double line part to form a loop. You have both a knot and a loop, which can come in handy to connect lines when you want to fly your kite on an extra long line.
I am currently using a loop made out of a Figure Eight knot and then I use that loop to create the Larkshead, I was more curious about if the Figure Eight knot that I create is weakening the line but doing a little research it looks like a figure eight knot holds about 80% of its strength.
This is comforting. I use a figure-8 on the lines I use a larkshead on (mostly lighter lines where I don't want the weight of the swivel). For lines with swivels I switched to the half blood knot Brooks recommended, and couldn't be happier.
If the kite has a ring which most do, I use a 300 lb escape proof swivel from Hi-Catch that has a 500lb catch tied to the dacron line with a double palomar knot. The escapeproof swivel can be undone with one hand easily and weighs only 18grams. Then to top it off because air is not a good lubricant for swivels that are meant to be in water I add 2 drops of Tri-Flow lubricant to the swivels ball bearings. The double palomar knot is said to be one of the strongest known knots at about 100% line strength.
The Figure-8 is the knot we use to tie into our rock-climbing harnesses, so it's the knot I use to tie a loop in the end of the line. I girth-hitch a deep-sea fisherman's snap-swivel on this loop.
DaveW I don’t think that you have to worry about the strength of a figure 8 knot. Like Chaz I also use it in safety critical situations, although my climbing is mainly subterranean. It’s a standard knot to use for safety cords and can also be used for rope rigging.
I looked up some good knots in my knot book and found the butterfly loop, which is imho better than the bowline or figure eight knots, because the line continues before and after the knot to opposite directions, just as it will when the line will be flown. Another upside is that the loop will not tighten when the line is under tension.
For rope rigging the butterfly knot is used as a mid rope knot, whereas the double figure 8 would be used at the end of a rope. It is worth remembering that the bowline does not tighten under load. Thats why it is used for saftey lines and rescue.
